Prevented a Mugging
 

On Friday at 7.10 in Philadelphia's suburban station.
Teams of two are targeting on the platforms below.
I fought of the guy holding a knife up to a young couple.

Im now looking for a small defense weapon... (not a gun) to aid me in a situation like this if it occurs again.

Any suggestions that do not require a permit?

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

First, good job! As for a non-firearm defense weapon a blackjack is a good little friend to have (be advised, though, they are illegal in PA), you can make your own easily (see "Death Wish"- rolls of coins in a sock). Choose your battles carefully my friend, you say the muggers were operating in two man teams, so always watch your six.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

I hope you came away uninjured.

Thanks for knocking them back.

Consider Bear Spray.

E-A

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Kubuton. Mini-baton.

http://www.spyreview.co.uk/2007/03/0...fense-keyring/

Search Amazon etc.

A lot of smallish torches double as a Kubuton nowadays.

Getting involved in a mugging is a difficult call. You might want to let it take place, and someone lose a wallet, and act as a witness. If it appears violence is going to happen then step in, but going up against an assailant with a knife that knows how to use it is inherently dangerous, and if you make a mistake they may get you right in the heart, artery, or eyeball.

Kicks are best against knife attacks, a straight/side kick to the chest/face or an upward kick to the groin. Note that a groin strike properly placed will stun any male opponent, doesn't matter how big they are, then move in for the kill. Create distance, deliver a strike that stuns, then go in, control the knife, disarm and smash them.

Kubotan are legal to carry in most circumstances, but probably not in a nightclub with metal detectors. Used properly they can be deadly. The sharpened end can be used to seek pressure points or strike to the temple with enough force to kill. Much harder than your hand, and able to really damage an opponent.

I hate to see people harrassed or mugged, but you have to choose your opportunities and weigh up the consequences of your actions. No point dying over a wallet, dying defending yourself or someone else is a noble thing.

Pepper spray or mace is also good, and good against multiple opponents, but it's no guarantee of stopping someone, and might end up blinding you also.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Forgot to add: you might want to consider an unarmed defense course at a martial arts school (most offer it besides their full course training). They will teach you open hand tactics and most importantly palm strikes. Punching somebody in the face is a good way to break your knuckles, a skull can do a remarkable amount of damage to the thin bones in your hand.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Another good improvised weapon is a leather belt with a decent belt buckle. Swung right, it will do damage +1. Great against knife attack if you have the time. If they grab onto it, yank it and kick them off.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

don't know how much abuse these can take
a friend of mine showed me his
i gave it a good wack against my forklift and bent it, he wasn't happy

http://www.feelsafernow.com/telescopic-steel-baton.jpg

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Pepper Spray - Something hot like Fox Labs:bawling:

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

i like that
improvised brass knuckles

now i just have to find a store that has steel ones

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Remind me not to mess with you and your carabiner. :) Nothing is going to break those as they are forged steel.

I have to check up on the local Kubuton laws. I might go the nasty torch route if they're restricted, as torches are always handy to have anyway, totally legal, seem pretty innoccuous to most people, and some of them are designed for precisely the purpose of striking.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Quickly clipping that into your belt buckle adds to the power of a belt whip. I like that idea. I think I will get a few.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

http://www.surefire.com/M3-CombatLight

Blind them then strike them with the scalloped bezel.......

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

and...

http://www.securityprousa.com/bopesp.html"]








Bodyguard is much better than Fox in my experience.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

1" nut tied to 3 feet of baler twine.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

I could see this being effective with an over the top swing. Bop them right on the bean.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

A couple of big nuts tied to the ends of a bootlace would work too. File all the nut edges smooth, else who knows where they'll fly off to....

.....I dunno if I would spend $12-$15 for a real climbing carabiner when the hardware store sells steel quick-links for $3. A quick-link has a nut instead of a gate; quick-links for climbing are usually called "maillon rapides".

------

The main thing about defending against a knife is to have something that can reach farther than the knife can. A mini-baton is pretty sad in that regard, and most places where you cannot carry a firearm, a baton is just as illegal too.

-end-

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

I've never been sprayed so I don't have experience. I'll yield to those in the know who've either gotten it in the face or sprayed someone with it.:adore:

I do however carry Spitfire and Fox. The trigger on the Spitfire allows for a couple of different defense positions. :ok:

http://www.spitfire.us/videos.htm

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Been carrying Body Guard for about ten years now. Have had it used on me in training (2 million Scoville Heat Units) and it flat out hurts! Used it on numerous occasions against two and four legged threats with 100% desired effect.

Tried some Fox a couple of years ago and received a dud can. The replacement had rust around the base. Not too impressed.

Another good (but slightly limited) option for more discreet carry is the ASP Defender.
http://www.asp-net.com/oc.html

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Several of the above sound good. But how about giving the guy an ear full of air horn? Up close it will bust the guy's ear drums. It will also call attention. And not even close to illegal.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

And if you just piss them off even more?

Throw the can at them.??

Need to disable and or hurt to the max.
If not you may be the next target.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Thank you, StudioPaul!! You are a courageous citizen and I wish you were my neighbor... :adore:

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

glass bottle from trash can, rock or brick, 2 x 4 from construction debris, squeeze water bottle full of ammonia, umbrella w/steel tip, 3' piece of rebar from construction debris, 5 iron, tightly rolled magazine[straight thrust to face].

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Everything becomes a weapon in the hands of a warrior which Paul certainly is.:coolbeer:

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

You spontaneously took your belt off, held it by the lighter end, and swung it at somebody?

I dunno about where you live, but in the US state I live in, anything can be cited as a "weapon" depending on how you used it.

-------

And I would not bother to call the police, in some circumstances.
If you got attacked and drove off the attacker, but suffered no damage yourself,,,,, why even bother calling the cops?
You wanted to {not get attacked} and you didn't.
You got what you wanted already; waiting for the police is just a bunch of paperwork and hassle you don't need. Most people arrested for petty charges get turned out within a few days anyway, and your name and address will be public knowledge on the police complaint or court documents.
You're better off if you just walk away.

-end-

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

That looks brutal. The only thing bad about it, is the close proximity of using it.

I recommend a good pepper spray. I've been sprayed with it once (training course), and it hurts like hell. It feels like your eye is on fire, and you can't see out of it.

If you get the guy in both eyes, there's no way he's going to be able to counter it. If you get him in one eye, he may be able to fight through it.

If you use it, follow up quickly with a good kick in the groin (while he's stunned from the spray). That should end the altercation. Pepper spray is good because you can keep some distance from the muggers. Distance = time, time to react. Avoid going hands on as much as possible.

BTY, it's refreshing to hear stories like Paul's. It's uplifting to know that there's a lot of good brave folks out there willing to step up and help another man in need. Thank you Paul, for your heroic actions.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

http://www.rickhindererknives.com/

This guy makes "ball point pens" that are really modular kubatons.

They are pricey, probably too pricey, but I still want one.

http://www.rickhindererknives.com/HANDGUNNER%20AD.jpg

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

How did you manage to do it?

I have several products from these guys: http://www.targetfocustraining.com/ and so I have more than a passing interest in these kind of things. How in the world did you fight off a guy holding a knife? I know it is possible, though rare, so I am sincerely interested in how you managed to do it. Good on you!

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Sorry, stun guns don't "stun" very well. A Taser, maybe, but your run-of-the-mill stun gun will just piss somebody off (it feels like a hornet's sting).

If you go with pepper spray, carry a MINIMUM size canister of 2 ounces - not one of the cute little keychain canisters.

I like the idea of a carabiner. Steel toe boots are also useful while having an up close & personal "discussion."

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Went into septa today to see if I could get access to the tape...as things did happen very fast.
How i did it...well..

3 of us sitting on park bench type seating ..im at one end female at other and young guy between.
As the muggers came through the door.. I read the nods and gestures.
I proceeded to make eye contact up at larger guy..his sights were set on me and my laptop.
I had a package of one mountain bike wheel..boxed fresh from ebay.

This guy was Big..football/ basketball type and African American..the second was smaller and scruffy ..lost sheep kind.

The big guy moved in ..I jumped up placed my laptop bag square accross my back flat.
They re considered their move and drew attention to the couple.


My guilt kicked into play as i didnt want them to suffer....larger guy sits in my now empty seat and flashes blade and whispers in guys ear whats about to happen.
At this point my adrenalin is rushing..and drove my self full on past the couple to push this guy as far away as possible...placing me between them.

I dont see a knife at this point and remember old Karate techniques of straight arm distance blows as to not getting close..the first was open palm push to throw him back..I slipped under my force to my knee..and pushed back up after being struck in the head...second was drawing up to the face, several exchanges later and much a blur... he got me good...but was enough to make them both run.

Things learned...

1. Although healthy.. my hand eye co ordination and action under stress needs to be revised due to adrenalin.

2. These guys see me as a target and Im a fit 35 year old, very concerning.

3. reported was a second group on over platform ..used as spotters.

4. I have a lot of mountain bike parts and will carry a seat post stem that fits snug in my laptop bag... has a heavy head stem but light in weight and creates good distance.

5. SEPTA , was only concerned if I was to push for a case for damages and not the safety of its passengers.

6. The couple was not aware of crime rates and actions soaring in PA.

7. The couple where very thankful and I were very content knowing that we were safe and prevented the theft of much work and we both have MACS..all the more reason to save them.( I joke)

8. Im happy at the end result and feel ..would have only changed my mind if i saw a gun.

Im going to be more cautious as I am..due to spotting the signs...again my intention was to defend pushing and punching the attacker away.

Anyone else have any thing like this happen?


thanks for the kind words.:ok:

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Nice to know you have my back....:sarc:

Like most people, I should avoid eye contact, cower turn the over way whilst someone needs help.... from punks.

Just hope that day doesn't happen to you as i turn my back and walk the other way!

:bear_angry:

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

He doesn't need witnesses. The punks took off, they are punks looking for easy prey...and will avoid the law at all costs.

It's over now.

If, and only in the slight chance of if...they see Paul in public. They will disappear like cowards because they will see a man that will fight them.

They want easy prey, they are scum, and will keep doing what they are doing until they get caught. Or until more guys like Paul come along and it just does not become 'worth it' anymore.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Congrats on coming out of that ordeal without missing any hide!

For your bravery, please select a new avatar!

http://www.geocities.com/theactionki...BioMainPic.jpg
http://charles-bronson.hp.infoseek.c...e/Jigokude.jpg
http://www.libertyfilmfestival.com/l...eath_wish5.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2006/...72995b43cf.jpg

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

SO funny!! I guess no more LOGANS RUN!!!

Im sorry for any backlash...im just saying the negative needs to be looked at and wished more people came fwd to help....its just sad to see in this day and age that people would rather turn their backs.

Trust me, my eyes were wide, but are now wider...avoiding muggers with guns sure hope so, dammed if I will let a punk intimidate my existence... terrorism at the lowest level... how about fight them over here too!!!

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

I have the spitfire as well. Takes a bit of effort to get used to just how hard to press it down. I'd get a refill for it so you can practice because it only has enough for 8 seconds of continuous spraying.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Taser is what LEOs use all the time, works great for them get a personal one that works just as well. They cost $350 but taser says if its lost in a self defense scenario they will replace it for free.
http://www.pyhaftaserc2.com/resources/C2%20Features.jpg
http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/C2.aspx

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Thankfully I've never had to be in the positon you've described.

I have been training in martial arts for about 6 years now and I'll let you know a few things we drill / teach.

against a knife, avoid the situation if at all possible. Let them have the wallet etc, only confront if there is risk of injury / rape / death. If you do get mixed up with a knife, plan on getting cut. Your goal isnt to avoid getting cut as much as it is to isloate cuts to exterior non fatal areas. A belt or jacket make a great defense wrapped around your left arm to perry with.

If you do end up mixing it up, a quick distracting strike (Groin kick, even a foot stomp) will loosen their focus for 1/2 second. If they're armed, thats your chance to control teh weapon w/ both hands. If they are not armed - proceed to the next section


If the weapon is gone / doesnt exist, after your distracting strike, a couple options make a good quick 1-shot attack

1) ridge hand or hook punch to the temple - This can cause the oponent to black-out if delivered well.
2) eye gouge - Especially good for the inexperienced, open your hand between the middle and ring finger (aka star trek vulcan, but only 1" apart) and stick your fingers straight into their eyes. Dont be afraid to dig for skull!
3) A firm extended side-kick to the side or front of the knee-cap will end a fight and probably cause perp to require a visit to the ortopedic surgeon. If you land it, theres no way you cant outrun him afterwards. Get you and your friends away.
4) a last good option for a quick strike is a strong well placed punch to the neck. This doesnt sound too bad unless you've had it happen to you. If delivered well this can cause black-out, difficulty breathing etc.

Unless you are -really- experienced, do not kick anything but the groin or knee. High kicks are asking to get you thrown to the ground unless you're really fast.

I know this post is probably begging for criticism from some other 29th degree black belt on the board that will tell you why my suggestions are all wrong. Take it for what it's worth. Like all self defense techniques, they work best when they've been practiced. Would you buy a gun and lock it away until a perp breaks into your house, or would you take it to the range a learn how to use it? Same w/ fighting... no substitute for practice!

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

First of all--"assault with a deadly weapon" can cover anything used as a weapon. You are not safe in court just because you beat somebody with a belt instead of a blackjack.

Secondly--What cops are involved? What lawyer? What court? Unless the attacker attempts to mug you inside a courtroom, none of any of that is even involved yet.

If the attacker had hurt and robbed you, they wouldn't have called the cops or ambulance for you. If you manage to hurt them instead, why do you think you have to do that stuff for them? The police aren't going to "fix" the situation any more than you already have.

If you simply walk away and leave the attacker bleeding on the ground, there is a good chance that you will never be found (that's what most criminals do, did you notice?). There is a pretty good chance that the attacker will never try to involve the police anyway, because they're more afraid of what charges they'd get.

--------

Now that I think of it, three feet would be too long..... Two feet of cord between the nuts would be about right.


-end-

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

I have also learned that on the Saturday in the same station, cops shot and killed a 60 year old homeless guy waving a box cutter at them!
How safe the police make you feel!
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

They probably thought he was going to take over a passenger jet. Good thing they got rid of that hijacker, huh?

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

First and foremost, I tip my hat to you for what sounds like a noble and honorable deed. It's always refreshing to hear of my fellow Americans standing up for what is right.

In the short term, I second the recommendation of collapsible batons, they're short and easily concealable. Used in tandem they are essentially escrima sticks lightning fast and brutally painful. Most people (without a gun) will simply give up against a competent escrima practitioner on the street. Here's a short quicktime clip from a fellow student demonstrating a club drill....http://akki.com/videos/

In the long term, I highly recommend American Kenpo http://www.akki.com. There are a lot of martial arts out there, however, when it comes to practicality Kenpo out shines most as it is is built for the street with focuses on mathematics, physics, geometry, physiology, and kinesiology.

It's sure as hell has made a difference in my life. :smile:

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

i just picked up one of these for my keychain and my wife's keychain.....i figure why not.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Kubotan-Key-chai...item230380544b

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

I'm stunned that noone mentioned the obvious ... a wood walking stick. You can even take it onto a plane without issue, but a good hickory cane is a brutal weapon. Not just as a club, as the crook can be used to disarm, trip and basically beat someone bloody.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Pepper/bear spray, or a gun type taser. There's a reason the police use them all the time. Street proven.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

That, but use exotic hard woods. You can get raw material pieces on ebay. If you think hickory is bad...wait till you get some of that rain forest stuff.

My brother makes exceptionally beautiful martial arts weapons all the time from exotic woods. Extremely dense woods like ironwood for example, they used to make industrial use bearings with this wood. I have a nice Brazilian ebony cane he gave me (1/2 of a bo), it's essentially as hard as steel.

i.e.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Vicious stuff, it would split open and crush anything on the head & face, break fingers, break wrists, ribs etc.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

I used to have an awesome kubotan keychain !!!
Thank You for reminding me of that kewl thing !!!
Mine didn't have anything pointy like the one pictured, but it
had a neat thing that if I held it upright you could spin your keys on it
super fast . I loved that thing. It also had a high pitched whistle in it.
I was younger and into karate back in the day.
It was just too big to carry.
Now I have a taser and some other stuff.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

As others have said, good work!

Being older and crustier than the dinosaurs I have the misfortune of having some hands on experience with this crap so take it or leave it but here's what I have to say about your situation... Get a couple training knives and a partner. That'll give you an idea of what you can do against a knife. Generally speaking even an idiot who isn't worried about getting cut can put a hurting on a skilled knife stylist. Most edged weapons martial arts are built around the idea of hurting the enemy without getting hurt yourself. Your average thug doesn't have that presence of mind and it changes the dynamic.

If you have to deal with a blade distance is your friend. Pepper spray is great but it's better outside than in a tight quarters because it can work both ways. If you're going to plan on using it eat a lot of the hottest curry, hotwings and similar foods you can find. Eat habaneros... Do like the cops, have yourself sprayed at least once so you won't be shocked when you get hit with it for the first time. You will build up a degree of tolerance.

I don't know what weapons are legal without a permit in Philadelphia but I'll try to look that up later. I can tell you that you can have a magazine and a big fat marker anywhere you go. As a lot of people can tell you a rolled up magazine gives you an extension weapon that can parry a knife and deliver a hell of a thrust. A marker can be used as a kubotan, is legal everywhere and you have the legitimate excuse of using it to highlight what you're reading in the magazine. Other than that be prepared to throw anything at hand at the attacker including any bag or briefcase you're carrying. If it has an effect seize the initiative and pound the orc into submission. More or less what Epic Beard Man did.

I wouldn't spend money on the special self defense pens. An ordinary disposable Bic pen works just as well, costs way less and will hold up better against scrutiny from the "authorities." The "unbreakable" plastic kind made with a bendable softer plastic that is usually white and usually comes with a blue cap is the best. The clear ones are generally brittle.

I agree with MetalMoney on kicking. It's too easy to catch a kick and if you try kicking a guy holding a knife you may very well get a blade stuck in your leg. Throwing stuff is a better plan, especially if you can get the whole crowd involved. Don't be afraid to ask the crowd for help. If you don't ask the answer is always going to be "no" and trust me, there are a whole lot of people who are sick of being scared and taking crap from thugs. They just need a tiny little bit of encouragement to let out some repressed anger at the lowlifes. You may end up have to pull the crowd off the orcs. Somebody should post that famous clip from the Ant And The Grasshopper movie.

Remember to seize the initiative when you have the advantage. The problem with a knife guy is that if he doesn't care about taking damage he can get that blade in your before he dies no matter what you're armed with.

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

Haltait,

I assume you're looking for this video?

Re: Prevented a Mugging
 

A knife is small and easy to carry everywhere and can go from on your belt to open in your hand in less than a second.